Language debate…
Several days ago Benay & I were chatting on Skype and conversation moved from passports to visas to zangyo (overtime) to recipes and then to teaching our future kids English.
There are two main methods/strategies of raising billingual children, one OPOL (One Parent, One Language) and another known as ML@H (Minority Language at Home).
We debated over these methods as I have always though that Shun and I would go with the OPOL method while Benay thinks ML@H is the method she and Naoki would go with.
Benay made some really good points and it did make me think more about it because this is something Shun & I will eventually have to decide on. When you think about it international marriages and families do provide more challenges and decisions that need to be made perhaps more so than a standard marriage does. That said, there are so many people out there now making their international marriages and families work and I know that Shun & I will make ours work as well. Sometimes though, I think about all the things that we will have to decide and it is mindboggling.
Benay and I had a healthy debate about which was better and why we would use one method over the other but ultimately we decided that we really have no idea which method we will end up using because we do not yet have kids and really have no idea what kind of kids we will have and which method would work better for them and our families.
I guess I have always thought we would use OPOL because Shun had never really spoken English before and I would of hated for our future children to pick up on his bad habits the same way I would hate for our kids to pick up on my Japanese mistakes and immitate them. I figure if I speak English with them and they are with me the majority of the time before they go to school then there English would hopefully reach a native level. There Japanese would reach a native level because they would attend Japanese kindergartens and speak Japanese with Shun and his family.
What would you do? Do you have experiences with either of these? Do you believe one of them works better than the other? Or perhaps you used a completely different method?
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I think that so long as both parents CAN speak both languages (well or badly I don’t think it matters much) and that both respect the other language then some kind of bilingualism will result.
For us we never really thought about it except that I felt strongly that I didn’t want to be forced to speak a language I didn’t feel comfortable in to my own baby, and the same went for Seiju too. We wanted our relationships to be the most important thing.
As it happened, we ended up using English at home as Seiju and I speak in English and so Yoshi just did what we did. Even today at 12 Yoshi and Seiju will speak 90 % in English even if they are out without me. They do use Japanese for discussing school stuff. Seiju invariably begins his conversations in English but will change to whatever the kid chooses next. Harry at 8 almost 90% chooses Japanese for talking with Seiju and Yoshi and about 60% Japanese for me. He is very aware that his English “isn’t good enough” (his words.) He has suffered from being the second kid following the elder one out in the world and thus speaking more Japanese.
The most important thing is that you both have the right to be fully understood by your kids and thus have the right to use your heart language with them…. You will probably find a pattern emerging naturally as you live with your kids, and what starts can always be tweaked as necessary!
I’m glad you wrote about this Lulu… Our conversation about this has been going round and round in my head since we had it, and I am getting more and more confused everyday, lol! I hope that a lot of people will comment so that we can here different opinions about both methods.
I liked what Vicky said, that even if one of the parents can’t speak the minority language perfectly it is not going to disadvantage the kid’s language ability in that language.
I’m looking forward to what other’s have to say! I’m going to that Australian woman’s house tomorrow, so I will be able to see a billingual family in real life! I can’t wait to meet her!!
i would strongly encourage ML@H because it has been my experience that those who do OPOL don’t always have perfectly bilingual children. we do ML@H because yoshi speaks english so well, and also because we have always spoken english together. also, once living with grandparents are involved, it can really make it difficult for the child(ren) to learn the minority language as a native speaker.
i would like to point out, though, that people, even children, learn languages differently, so while OPOL might work really well for one family, it might not work at all for another. (keep in mind, though, that babies learn their first language in a different part of the brain than an adult learning a second language. i think that’s why small children find it easier to ‘learn’ a second–or even a third–language.) same for ML@H or any other method one might try for their children.
ALSO! because of how a baby/child learns a language, he or she is going to get the grammar, no matter how poorly the parent speaks. don’t worry about your mistakes, your child will get it!
That’s a really interesting point.
I hadn’t ever thought about it, I guess if you just keep doing what you normally do and then supplement whatever language is not being favoured then it will all just pan out. As the first language is being learned, it’s the prime time to introduce a second language so I guess as long as you make sure the child is exposed to a fair amount of both languages, in whichever way it happens, then you’ll be right.
Wow, that was entirely
With my oldest we did ML@H. So when she entered kindergarten she basically spoke no Japanese at all. It was very difficult and tramatic for her and took a couple of months for her to adjust. She caught up quickly though and as far as we can tell she is on level with the kids in her class.
I was worried about her losing English, but I am very glad we decided to send her off to a Japanese kindergarten, as hard as it was at first, because I would have hated for her to go into first grade with limited Japanese ability. Now we are dealing with reading and writing. She can read and write (hiragana) in both languages almost on level with her peers in both countries. She is a little stronger in Japanese for reading and writing d because she does Kumon and only studies English reading and writing with me when we have a little free time.
For my youngest, well, I am not sure what we are doing. I only speak English to him, but his sister and Dad speak a mix of both. I always speak only English to the kids and to DH, although occasionally I will repeat something in Japanese if I want a non-English speaker to understand. They mix it up when talking to him though depending on the situation and whatever mood strikes them. My son isn’t nearly as verbal as his sister was at the same age (2 1/2), but when he does speak it is a mix of both. Not sure if that is because of the way they speak to him or because that often happens with toddlers living in any bilingual environment.
Before I had kids I was really stressed out about it, but I know so many kids who flip back and forth flawless I know they will get both languages in the end as long as they are being exposed to both in some manner.
I know there’s two main ‘methods’, ml@h and OPOL, but in my experience, life is more complicated than that and things are a whole lot more mixed up. For example, you may be doing OPOL, but when your children will often hear you speaking Japanese. ml@h often becomes ml@mother, and you use English wherever you are if you are only speaking to each other…but then switch if you have to speak to MIL, for example.
I agree that a lot depends on the Dad’s language. Our Dad doesn’t really speak English, though he can if pushed, and he understands. So for us, it has to be OPOL. But my girls have also spend a lot of time in NZ, and both went to English kindy, so that’s balances that back out and their English is fine.
As long as you keep an eye on the level of each language, and introduce certain measures if one or the other isn’t keeping up (our girls also went to Japanese kindy for a year before school, to give them time to get their Japanese up to speed), I think you can let it evolve naturally.
Hmm… this also a hot topic in our house… well not so much.
Because I know that its going to end up being OPOL no matter how much Ryohei tries to tell me otherwise. He’s never had to use English or live abroad or anything so I doubt he will speak it to our kids, although when they are born I probably will just speak “at” him in English in front of them and he can feel free to answer back in Japanese.
I think in your case L - you will have a lot more native speakers accessible to you which is something that Nay or I in the more rural parts of Japan won’t. *sigh* This is one of the crappiest parts of going to there for me. No English speakers for me or to expose my kids too…
And a husband who has little to no interest in ever living abroad or “non-Japanese” experience.
Sorry to come off a bit frustrated. We had another squabble last night about moving and this was one of the major reasons behind it. BTW - three way Skype is possible. Should we try it sometime? I’d love to talk to both of you at once about iroiro~
With a baby due any minute, this topic has also been at our table. We ended up deciding on a combination of OPOL and ML@H…though technically, both of our mother tongues (English and Catalan) are the minority languages here in Japan. Plus, my husband is also a native Spanish speaker, so at some point we need to work that in as well, though that is not on the high priority list.
We’ve figured that each of us will talk in our native language when we are alone with her, and at some point our home language will be Catalan…but the difficulty there lies in the fact that our entire relationship has been in English, and when you start something in one language, it is very difficult to switch over to the other. I understand most of what he says when he remembers to speak only Catalan with me, but I still find it difficult to hold a good conversation - especially now that I know all the mistakes I am making, so…we will see.
Eventually, all of our children will attend English schools (as we are both International school teachers, and get the tuition free!), so having the conversation at home in Catalan is really the only chance they will have to work on that language unless we move back to Barcelona, which may happen at some point as well.
But writing this response reminds me I really need to get cracking on developing my Catalan skills! I know I will always make the mistakes a non-native speaker will make (especially since English does not have all that masculine-feminine agreement junk to remember!), but despite that, I imagine our children will develop their skills at a much higher level, with much less cognizant (read:frustrating, banging head against table) learning.
Good luck!
Thank you to everyone who has commented so far- I went away for a couple of hours and come back to six comments already!!! Popular topic, especially amoungst my overseas readers it seems!
Vicky- Firstly, thank you so much for commenting and leaving your opinion. It is funny how both of your boys are so different, but I guess that proves the point that you really do not know what will work until you are in the situation.
While Shun`s English is getting better (It was pretty non-existent when we arrived in Australia) I think he would be more comfortable speaking to our future kids in Japanese and I would want him to speak in whatever he spoke comfortable. I guess in the end, if he wanted to speak English with them then that would be fine also.
I know I will have to try hard to not speak Japanese- I speak Japanese with our dog and we are in Australia…I am guessing though that once we have kids I will just speak English to them naturally!
Nay- I hope we can both get a lot of advice from the comments on this post- I think I have come to the conclusion that I will just let it all happen naturally and hope for the best- I suppose it is better not to force the situation! And who knows Shun`s English might become pera pera and we could do ML@H
Illahee- It is interesting to hear your perspective because you and your partner speak English with each other where as most of the other woman I have met with Japanese husbands seem to speak in Japanese.
You do ML@H right? Do Hiro & Sacha speak much Japanese? Do you think they will go ok at kindergarten?
I guess that is my fear as well that if we did do ML@H then when they went off to kindy they would struggle- I know they would pick it up fast but I guess it is always a worry.
That is interesting what you said about the children not picking up on the bad grammar- I must tell Shun! He will be happy to hear this. In the same way I am happy that if they overhear me speaking Japanese that they won`t neccessarily make the same mistakes I do!
Jen- How is your job going? Are you finding that the kids are pretty billingual or not? I like your idea of ” it just panning out” I hope it does- I figure that we will just go with it and hope for the best. I will of course work on the English with the kids at home as they won`t have much formal English training otherwise and I guess the other important thing is to get the kids to Australia as often as possible so they can be immersed in English!
Sherry- Thanks for stopping by!!! It was nice of you to stop and comment and very interesting to hear your experiences. It seems that ML@H seems to be the more popular method amoungst those raising their children in Japan. Do you think your daughter adjusted well after a couple of months- do you thinks she still remembers it? I guess that is a worry of mine, as I mentioned earlier.
That said, even if we ML@H, our children will probably spend a fair bit of time with their grandparents as we will probably live near them in Chiba. I would also encourage them to make friends with Japanese children so that *hopefully* even if their English was the stronger language to begin with that they could also learn to speak Japanese at a native level.
It is good that you take the time to practise English reading and writing. I would also be interested to hear more about your second childs(DS) development- It is often said that the second child takes a little longer to come out of their billingual shell!!!!
Thanks again for commenting
Rachel- Thanks for giving your opinion! I am always so impressed by your daughters English (and their accents) when you post videos on your blog and I hope my future children will be as billingual as your children (that sounds weird, but I am sure you know what I mean)
I am thinking that we will just wait and see what method ends up working for us or we might even end up going for a mixed version of them! Or invent our own!!!
It has been very interesting hearing others opinions and experiences! Thank you!
Sara- Just had a threeway skype with you and Nay! So we are all now feeling a little more chirpy I think! I was in the middle or writing the comment above when you rang me actually.
I think that OPOL will probably be the method we end up using but I will speak to Shun in ENglish as much as possible in front of the kids. I think if the kids speak to him in English he will speak back to them in English but it really depends I guess.
I am lucky that I have quite a few foreign friends in Tokyo/Chiba- although none of them have kids yet! I will have to work on them!!! Anyway, we can have day trips and weekend trips where our kids can all play together in English I am sure!
Jessica- It is very interesting to hear your views, especially because as you said BOTH of the languages you will speak inside the house will be minority languages! I don`t think I realized you husbands native language was catalan…I think I thought he was German as that is where you used to live!!!
How long do you plan to be in Japan? If you introduce Spanish as well and send them to Japanese classes then they may end up multilingual by 3 which would be pretty cool!
I think this topic will become a lot more of a hot topic in our house when we start to have kids!
Best of luck with the birth of bub- and deciding on which method to go with! Also best of luck with the Catalan!!!
I’m one who always figured we’d do OPOL too, but well, for me, speaking in English, even though it is my native language, just didn’t come naturally after speaking Chinese with DH all the time. Because my husband doesn’t speak English at all really, OPOL is our only real option, but I’m having a hard time keeping up the English part. If my husband understood English it would be easier I think, because I don’t really want my relationship with my son to be an exclusive thing where my husband doesn’t even understand what we’re saying. I think if we lived in the States we’d definitely do MLAH, but we live in China, which means … well, for now it means I’m failing pretty miserably at teaching my son English, although I do speak English with him now and then when I remember. He’s only 1 so there’s still time, but I guess I’m an example of how things don’t always work out as we’d planned when it comes to language. I think that no matter what method you choose there are going to be compromises and in the end you just gotta go with whatever works for your family.
hiro and sasha don’t speak japanese, practically at all. i always figured they’d learn when they started school (kindergarten or day care). they would be young enough to get it. plus, they’d get grammar and writing lessons early on in elementary school, and i wanted them to be bilingual (with english/japanese) so we’ve been really good about english only at home.
yoshi does use japanese from time to time, but he and the kids never have conversations in japanese. when my in-laws come over it just works out, maybe because hiro and sasha do know a few japanese words, and use them mainly with baachan/jiichan.
the only really frustrating time comes when we’re out and some stranger wants to talk to them. maybe because they’re ‘half’, or just so darn cute, whatever, but people want to ask them their name, how old they are. of course, before they couldn’t speak/understand much so when they didn’t answer, people would ask, can he/she speak japanese? and i’d have to reply…he doesn’t speak at all! now people try to ask hiro stuff, and he should be able to answer, but he can’t. maybe a good thing he’s starting school tomorrow!
i would like to just take the opportunity to say that *if* you want your kids to speak both languages, it’s most likely going to be a lot of work for you and your partner. do as much as you can when they’re young, but realize that there may come a point when your child doesn’t want to speak either language. and that’s ok, too. i work so hard on english because i know that someday japanese is just going to be every day, all the time (because of school and friends), and i want my kids to be able to talk to their american relatives.
Hi again,
In reply to your question, yes I think she finally adjusted well and she remembers all the English she knew before she started school and has built on it as I speak to her in English, about 1\2 the time her Dad still speaks to her in English, she watches TV and dvds in English, we read English books and take trips home as often as we can, and so on. I am not worried about her language ability in English or Japanese at all.
I am a bit more worried about my son as he is not getting English, and pretty much nothing but English, 24/7 the way she basically did. He gets it from me and tv, books, and so on, but not like she did. I know he will be able to speak it and understand it, one way or another, because as Rachel basically said I will watch it and take actions to assure he does. And when/if they hit the age of telling me they won’t speak English to me or whatever as sometimes happens then I will deal with it however seems best at the time; but I will continue with the English, even if they hate me, because I cannot imagine anything more horrible than them not being able to talk to half of their family, you know.
Anyway, by the second semester of the first year at kindy she was totally fine. There were lots of kids in her class who had trouble adjusting and they were only dealing with one language. Now, she flips back and forth between Japanese and English without any problem, as do all her other friends with foreign mothers and fathers. She has lots of friends at school and when we go home I sign her up for things there - like summer camp. She has no problems there either with language, but sometimes there are little problems due to the different ways children behave and interact socially, although nothing really big.
Sometimes she does get frustrated and can’t express herself, but I think it is because she is a little kid and gets overwhelmed and doesn’t know how she feels or what she thinks to begin with so can’t express herself in either language.
I guess I should have mentioned it but she started private kindergarten at 3 (public ones usually start at 4). Two weeks before she started we moved to a new city, she went from sleeping in a futon with me to having her own bed in her own room, and before that first day of kindergarten she had never spent more than a couple of hours away from me and then she was with her Dad. There were some problems due to language as she is a chatter box and not being able to say what she wanted to say to everyone was frustrating to her, but there were some bigger things going on in her life other than language. Sorry I didn’t make that clear.
I was worried about her not knowing Japanese and talked to the school before she even started. Her Dad and I drilled her with some important Japanese words before she started - like toilet and so on, then I gave the teacher a list of words in English with Japanese translations of things that might come up. It wasn’t a long list, but for example right after they started they had a health check. She is always scared that doctors are going to give her shots so I told the teacher if she started yelling “I don’t want a shot!” what it meant and why it was happening. I also explained to her over and over again about the doctor coming and there would be no shot. Finding out what was going on and explaining it to her before hand, over and over, was very important in our case until her Japanese got good enough for her to understand what was happening on her own. The school isn’t an international one, but they are used to having foreign or dual kids so they understood the situation, and the teacher was very kind and helpful. I think picking the right school and lucking out with a wonderful teacher helped a lot.
Sorry to babble on, I live in Funabashi Chiba so if you are ever around there and want to chat more let me know.
Lulu, a great topic and some wonderful comments. Our situation is not so different. However, Jun’s Japanese is really taking off. I am looking forward to our trip to the States for Christmas, to give her English a booster shot. When we were home this summer she only used two Japanese words (kore, gochisosamdeshita). I was really suprised! We will see how things go this trip.
Oh, one thing about bilingualism that I am concerned about is that Jun be able to read and write both languages too. Not just speak. Gina at Life of an American mommy is sending her oldest to Kumon for English writing/reading/grammer as well as for Japanese. What a great idea!
That is an interesting idea about Kumon for English, but keep in mind that they teach English-including strict grammar in school. It used to start in junior high, but now some schools are starting it in elementary and it is only slightly later than kids are learning grammar rules in school in the US (not sure about other countries). In fact, after years of working in Japanese schools I would say that English grammar is what Japanese teachers are best at. It is the speaking and listening where they fall short and where us English speaking moms can make the difference IMO. So if you have the money and the kid has the time Kumon is great. My kids use it for Japanese and math, but if time and money is limited they will get plenty of English grammar and more reading and writing practice in school. I think my husband actually knows the English grammar rules better than I do somedays so that is one area where I think the Japanese schools do a good job.
Wow! So many great ideas and methods and situations….We are basically using OPOL. It feels comfortable for both of us. Also, after reading, The Scientist in the Crib: What Early Learning Tells Us About the Mind (Gopnik, Meltzoff, Kuhl) the one thing that really stuck with me was that prior to one year of age, babies can easily hear and learn language distinctions from native speakers of a language. After one year of age (it may even be earlier than that) it’s harder (though not impossible) for people to hear some of the subtle differences in pronunciation, intonation etc. Assuming that this is the case, we opted for the OPOL method. Interestingly enough, since we’ve recently relocated the “minority” language has flipped. For the first 8 months of our daughter’s life the minority language was Japanese, now it’s English (respectively my husband’s native tongue and mine). We hadn’t planned on this but see it as a bonus! Also, while we are generally using OPOL, we both slip into the other language on occasion - especially with those catchy children’s tunes and storybooks! It’s hard to resist and in the end, it is a bit messy. I remember reading in one of the books about raising bilingual kids that it’s helpful not to get too stressed about the whole thing as some kids don’t take it well if they see themselves as not good enough, or if their parents laugh at them (”Oh how funny and cute that you said that daughter!” can be badly misinterpreted by some children). Thus, we’re hoping for the best and striving for some level of bilingualism, not perfection. We’ll see what happens!
Jess- I am really lucky in that because Shun decided to come to Australia while I am out here his English is improving at least to the level that he can understand A LOT more than he ever used to. His spoken English still needs work, but so does my Japanese so I guess we can work on our respective second languages together. So when we have kids I know he will understand what I am saying to the kids if I speak English…
After writing this post, and reading everybodies comments, it has just made me realize more that you really can`t plan and have everything go according to plan after kids come into the picture. While we might have every intention of doing OPOL now (as you did) we might end up finding it doesn`t work for us.
Thanks for stopping by to comment!
Illahee- Thanks for coming back to comment again…I love hearing about Hiro, Sasha (and Tommy of course) and how you have encorporated billingualism into their lives.
I have seen kids as they get older, refuse to speak one of their languages and it seems to be a natural stage they go through. In most cases if they are growing up in Japan for example, it seems to be the English they rebel against in later life…yet I have quite a few friends who are half and in Japan and they speak both languages near perfectly so it goes to show that they always bounce back!!!
It is really important to me that our kids can communicate with both sides of their families also, even if we are based in Japan and they don`t get to see their aussie relatives very often. I know it will be tough to keep up their both languages, but just reading through the comments on this post and on some of the forums I frequent give me hope that it is possible- whichever way you go about it.
Sherry- Thank you to you also for coming back to expand on your comment. Your daughter sounds like a little trooper- I think starting kindergarten for any child would be a difficult adjustment and she has done really well!
I have heard, and while I am no expert, that sometimes boys take longer to talk and pick up languages when they are younger (girls always seem to be chatterboxes- I have found this in my teaching in Japan as well)… I am sure your son will just wake up one day and it will all click.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences - When I return to Japan I will be in Chiba or Tokyo so please keep in touch as I would love to meet up with you one day.
Kim- Jun is so adorable and I just love that she loves to sing in English ( and Japanese) it is just so cute. I would also want my kids to be able to read and write in both languages and I am a big reader and love to write and look forward to teaching my future children to love words as much as I do.
I know that I won`t be able to prempt everything that happens in their lives or control whether they pick up English or Japanese more but I very motivated to help them excel in both of their languages (and myabe a third or fourth- I would have to get around to leaning one myself first though!)
Kumon for English & Japanese is also an interesting idea, and it was interesting to read Gina`s take on this. Kumon can get quite expensive I beleive although I think for Japanese (and probably maths if they take after me and not their father) they will probably need a bit of help as I can`t really help them much with their writing. I can write and read Japanese at a reasonable level but it would definitely be better if a native person taught them.
I have experience teaching children to read and write and i look forward to using my previous experiences and adding them to teach my future kids to read and write.
Coffeegrl- Thanks for stopping by and thanks for the book recommendation- I have made note of it in my diary and will have to check it out, if not now, then in a couple of years when kids might start coming onto the scene.
Best of luck at raising your daughter in a billingual environement- I particulary like what you said about striving for some level of billingualism and not perfection- I think you summed up a lot of the commentors thoughts with that.
There seems to be a fairly consistant and equal number of people who use OPOL & MLAH and a mix of those who use a mix of both or a mix of their own style. I have really enjoyed reading everybodies experiences and really appreciate the fact that everyone stopped by to comment (sometimes two or three times!!!)
This is a really interesting discussion. Before we had our daughter, DH and I basically spoke 99%Japanese with each other, even though he went to high school and uni in the US and speaks good enough English, Japanese was the language we just fell into.
When we got out dog (while I was pregnant) I caught myself speaking Japanese to her when we were out and about walking one day and got a bit of a shock, lol! Now with 1.5year old DD, we seem to have “fallen into” ML@H with both DH and I speaking basically English to DD. however, we still speak in Japanese to each other. Hmm. And I find that when I am out in the real world with DD, I tend to speak Japanese with her if there are others around so that they can understand too. And I often read her books in J as well as E, and we watch all the J kids shows on TV and sing the songs! So I guess we are really messing things up, haha.
At the moment, she seems to understand most things in both English and Japanese, and can say several words in each - some words she can even say in both languages, others she only knows in one language. I sorta wish I had been more vigilant and researched more before DD was born, but at the same time, I am kind of ok with how we are going along, as I think it is the most natural for all of us.
At this stage, I am not too worried about her J language ability - as long as she can talk with the PILs then that is cool. I figure anything else she will pick up once she goes to J pre-school, at which time I guess we have to look at bumping up her E skills….
I’m late to add to the conversation, but I just wanted to wish you the best and tell you not to worry too much. One small example… I have some married friends. She is Russian; he is American. They lived in Japan (just moved… sad) and had a Japanese baby sitter for their three children. Oh and she is now an American citizen, but still obviously fully Russian in other respects. Their oldest daughter speaks fluent Russian and English and was learning Japanese. Their two youngest (3 and 2) both were learning to speak Russian which their mom spoke at home mostly and then dad spoke English at night. Their baby sitter taught them Japanese too. The 3 year old was picking up on all of it and even knew when to use the right language with the right people. Whatever method you choose to teach your children, I am sure will work well. As a teacher, you already know how quick kids are. I know their will be challenges, but I am thinking all the best for your future little ones!!
PS - We named our son Ethan. I’m so darn smitten. Can’t wait for you to know the same… but not rushing you! I know you have some amazing newlywed years ahead of you first!
OPOL (One Parent, One Language) and another known as ML@H (Minority Language at Home). In all honesty I think we would do a combination of both like the OP said, life is busy and sometimes complicated and I can not see myself doing ONLY one so I think we would say both methods equally and not force things but let them occur naturally.